Comments on: Union-Busting Is Market Manipulation and Wage Theft http://dirtyhippies.org/2011/02/25/union-busting-is-market-manipulation-and-wage-theft/ Democracy. Unwashed. Wed, 06 Sep 2023 22:36:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5 By: Hector Chavana Jr http://dirtyhippies.org/2011/02/25/union-busting-is-market-manipulation-and-wage-theft/#comment-31 Hector Chavana Jr Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:40:58 +0000 http://dirtyhippies.org/?p=155#comment-31 I like original arguments, and critique only to strengthen these arguments. The idea that coercion is used in the negotiation of labor is very insightful. Brilliant. Coercion is economic philosophy, but the practical theory is found in contract law. Of course, I have always known of the disadvantage of having rent on your back when you need a job, but I had never thought to consider it through the prism of contract law, or economic philosophy as you seem to do here. From the little that I know about contract law, this could be called "duress" in certain circumstances. The worker has to eat and keep shelter over his head, resulting in a great amount of duress should he not accept the offer to work. A contract signed under duress is often voidable. This duress argument might not apply if there are other market alternatives to the choice of employment. However, in the grand scheme of things, this duress argument might provide a greater theoretical framework for socializing all basic needs, rather than as an argument as to the efficacy of labor unions. So the worker is under duress from his need to eat? How does a labor union remove the existing duress? As far as the asymmetrical information argument...I guess I have a couple of thoughts. On the one hand, I don't know that workers are really that uninformed about their own product (labor). I understand that jornaleros (day laboreres) here in Houston, mostly charge $80 per day, sometimes $50 under specfic circumstances. It is true that many workers of all stripes are unaware of their rights, but I think most understand what price their labor will fetch. Perhaps if you detailed out the asymmetrical information argument and applied it specifically to worker's rights (as opposed to only the price for labor) I might be more agreeable. On the otherhand, the mortgage market collapse nakedly showed what an asymetry of information could do to collapse markets. A pool of overly informed suppliers of mortgages sold to a dismally uninformed pool of buyers (borrowers). The borrower's lack of familiarity with product features led to the collapse of the market. The analogy is not exact, but perhaps still useful. In the mortgage market, the buyers were uninformed. In the labor market, the seller (of labor is uniformed). Perhaps providing some examples in which uniformed sellers have collapsed market might bolster your argument. I reiterate that your take on duress in the sale of labor, viewed through the prism of economic philosophy, is one that I won't soon forget. I like original arguments, and critique only to strengthen these arguments. The idea that coercion is used in the negotiation of labor is very insightful. Brilliant. Coercion is economic philosophy, but the practical theory is found in contract law. Of course, I have always known of the disadvantage of having rent on your back when you need a job, but I had never thought to consider it through the prism of contract law, or economic philosophy as you seem to do here. From the little that I know about contract law, this could be called “duress” in certain circumstances. The worker has to eat and keep shelter over his head, resulting in a great amount of duress should he not accept the offer to work. A contract signed under duress is often voidable. This duress argument might not apply if there are other market alternatives to the choice of employment. However, in the grand scheme of things, this duress argument might provide a greater theoretical framework for socializing all basic needs, rather than as an argument as to the efficacy of labor unions. So the worker is under duress from his need to eat? How does a labor union remove the existing duress?

As far as the asymmetrical information argument…I guess I have a couple of thoughts. On the one hand, I don’t know that workers are really that uninformed about their own product (labor). I understand that jornaleros (day laboreres) here in Houston, mostly charge $80 per day, sometimes $50 under specfic circumstances. It is true that many workers of all stripes are unaware of their rights, but I think most understand what price their labor will fetch. Perhaps if you detailed out the asymmetrical information argument and applied it specifically to worker’s rights (as opposed to only the price for labor) I might be more agreeable.

On the otherhand, the mortgage market collapse nakedly showed what an asymetry of information could do to collapse markets. A pool of overly informed suppliers of mortgages sold to a dismally uninformed pool of buyers (borrowers). The borrower’s lack of familiarity with product features led to the collapse of the market. The analogy is not exact, but perhaps still useful. In the mortgage market, the buyers were uninformed. In the labor market, the seller (of labor is uniformed). Perhaps providing some examples in which uniformed sellers have collapsed market might bolster your argument.

I reiterate that your take on duress in the sale of labor, viewed through the prism of economic philosophy, is one that I won’t soon forget.

]]> By: ReneeMax http://dirtyhippies.org/2011/02/25/union-busting-is-market-manipulation-and-wage-theft/#comment-30 ReneeMax Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:55:47 +0000 http://dirtyhippies.org/?p=155#comment-30 What's going to happen is: there will be a mass exodus of the educated middle to upper middle class. Already there are hundreds-of-thousands of educated American expatriates living and working abroad. My niece, who recently obtained a master's degree in public health, specializing in not-for-profit health care, from the NYU in Manhattan, NY, is now working for an NGO in India. In two years, she will be transferred to the NGO's main headquarters in Switzerland, where she intends to live out her life. Many young Americans are returning to their grandparents' (or great grandparents') homeland like Scotland to attend a four-year undergraduate university program. By the time these young Americans finish their university educations abroad, they will have already formed very close bonds with friends and potential mates. These young Americans, studying abroad -- because a university education is no longer affordable or viable here in the U.S. -- will make a new home abroad as permanent American expatriates. Most of our grandparents (and great grandparents) would never comtemplate immigration to the U.S. today. The U.S. has evolved into a most repressive and oppressive regime, espousing virulent forms of religious, social, and political extremism. In reality, the Republican party is not much different than the extremist parties in the Middle East like Hamas and Hizb'allah. What’s going to happen is: there will be a mass exodus of the educated middle to upper middle class. Already there are hundreds-of-thousands of educated American expatriates living and working abroad. My niece, who recently obtained a master’s degree in public health, specializing in not-for-profit health care, from the NYU in Manhattan, NY, is now working for an NGO in India. In two years, she will be transferred to the NGO’s main headquarters in Switzerland, where she intends to live out her life. Many young Americans are returning to their grandparents’ (or great grandparents’) homeland like Scotland to attend a four-year undergraduate university program. By the time these young Americans finish their university educations abroad, they will have already formed very close bonds with friends and potential mates. These young Americans, studying abroad — because a university education is no longer affordable or viable here in the U.S. — will make a new home abroad as permanent American expatriates. Most of our grandparents (and great grandparents) would never comtemplate immigration to the U.S. today. The U.S. has evolved into a most repressive and oppressive regime, espousing virulent forms of religious, social, and political extremism. In reality, the Republican party is not much different than the extremist parties in the Middle East like Hamas and Hizb’allah.

]]> By: chundini http://dirtyhippies.org/2011/02/25/union-busting-is-market-manipulation-and-wage-theft/#comment-24 chundini Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:16:26 +0000 http://dirtyhippies.org/?p=155#comment-24 Even if scott walker wins for the Koch brothers in destroying the unions and we have to step back over a hundred years of justice stuggles, They (the elites) will pay dearly for that. The teachers will keep on teaching with more subtleties. Fostering truth never before broached. They will not be outspoken to be targeted as subversive. While their prebscribe essays assignments that will filter out the most brightess with a thirst for knowledge. Many of the elites' children will go to private schools to avoid contamination. These private schools are seldom a den of creativity but of doctrination to appease and justify the high fees in accordance with what they think their high paying customers want. These Elites are prodatory amongst themselves unless a common goal is targetted through their concensus. Why do the Rothchilds inter-marry? It is not a big incestuous fetish. It is in the keeping Monney and and power unto itself. Once the lower classes (middle, poor and poorest) have been usurped and render compliant to their designs. They will historically follow the path to infight amongst themselves as we have seen Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers. From a text book classical case study one would think, Although it is an ideal position to be in, or will this bring me closer to an anti-trust situation. I lay pleasantly awake a few nights pondering if Obama is a trully bought man or simply our new Gaius Marius Even if scott walker wins for the Koch brothers in destroying the unions and we have to step back over a hundred years of justice stuggles, They (the elites) will pay dearly for that. The teachers will keep on teaching with more subtleties. Fostering truth never before broached. They will not be outspoken to be targeted as subversive. While their prebscribe essays assignments that will filter out the most brightess with a thirst for knowledge. Many of the elites’ children will go to private schools to avoid contamination. These private schools are seldom a den of creativity but of doctrination to appease and justify the high fees in accordance with what they think their high paying customers want. These Elites are prodatory amongst themselves unless a common goal is targetted through their concensus. Why do the Rothchilds inter-marry? It is not a big incestuous fetish. It is in the keeping Monney and and power unto itself. Once the lower classes (middle, poor and poorest) have been usurped and render compliant to their designs. They will historically follow the path to infight amongst themselves as we have seen Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers. From a text book classical case study one would think, Although it is an ideal position to be in, or will this bring me closer to an anti-trust situation. I lay pleasantly awake a few nights pondering if Obama is a trully bought man or simply our new Gaius Marius

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